Kathi:: Rich, are you busy?
How are you? Haven't talked to you in ages!! Miss you!!!

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Rich Tatum: Sorry. Was in meetings since lunch.
Rich Tatum: Hi!

Kathi:: I figured you must have been busy, tis ok!
How are you? How is your darling wife?

Rich Tatum: 'Bout to have a baby. She's still infected with child tho.
Rich Tatum: She's home sick with a virus, or flu, or something.

Kathi:: I saw that on your web site. Loved the ultrasound pics.
Nah, the last few days of both of my pregnancies were sick-o days. The bod's just prepping itself for the exertions of labor.
Kathi:: I'm praying she'll have a labor like both of mine were … short, sweet, and to the point. ;-)

Rich Tatum: No doubt.
Rich Tatum: She's really attracted to the epidural now.

Kathi:: I don't blame her … but I suggest trying to stick it out without it, if she can …

Rich Tatum: that's the plan … but … you know.
Rich Tatum: She feels like a whimp.

Kathi:: yeah, I know … that's why I'm praying what I am. My longest labor was six hours, three pushes, very easy.

Rich Tatum: Nice.
Rich Tatum: AOGDialog has been quiet.

Kathi:: yep, sure has …

Rich Tatum: I've been real busy lately, haven't been able to pay attention to any of the dialogs on the verious lists.
Rich Tatum: Got embroiled in divorce/remarriage there for a while, but I lost the thread.

Kathi:: I've been too busy to write all that much … first was sick, had pneumonia really bad … then the last few days, God's been using me to talk to a couple of people …

Rich Tatum: Yeah?
Rich Tatum: Sorry about the pneumonia … that's bad.
Rich Tatum: What's happening in the talking field?

Kathi:: I'm 99% recovered, thank God.
Well, Don Veinot's got me talking to a girl who may (or may not, we're not sure if she's jerking our chains) have been raised as a witch.

Rich Tatum: Do people get raised as witches?

Kathi:: Certainly … I was raising my kids that way …

Rich Tatum: Don't Wiccans believe all roads lead to enlightenment? Seems like Wiccan children would be left to form their own opinions …. ?

Kathi:: A lot of people claim that, but if their kids ran off and became Christians, they'd freak out <g>

Rich Tatum: True.
Rich Tatum: And it's not like there'd be a "vaccuume" of ideology in a Wiccan household.

Kathi:: And then yesterday afternoon, my friend Mike, who is the guy who introduced me to the gods of Egypt in the first place, asked me about Bobby. So I told him about Bobby's dream of becoming a missionary, and how he'd just met Rob Hoskins and told him about wanting to take the book of hope to China.

Rich Tatum: Bet he freaked out.

Kathi:: Now, I've mentioned missions to Mike before and gotten no response, but this time he freaked out and jumped all over me. Called me a narrow-minded fundie and a few things I won't repeat ;-) THEN he asked me why I'd allow such a thing (as Bobby becoming a missionary).
Kathi:: Well, he asked … <g> We ended up having a 4-hour conversation. Really amazed me.

Rich Tatum: Huh …
Rich Tatum: Wonder why missions hit his hot button this time?

Kathi:: But now he's terrified that I'm going to pray for him. Went as far as to write to me this morning and tell me that if I do, our friendship is over, he'll never speak to me again.

Rich Tatum: Really …

Kathi:: But if I don't … he'll still talk with me about this.

Rich Tatum: Boy — is he afraid of the power of prayer or is he afriad of you thinking of him as a need for prayer?

Kathi:: The really bizarre thing is that I'm fairly sure I was not talking to Mike himself the entire time. Mike is very adept at channelling the Egyptian deities, and he said some things that reminded me very much of one of them. It really, really freaked me out, that maybe I was talking to that, and not to Mike … you know?

Rich Tatum: Huh.
Rich Tatum: Creepy.
Rich Tatum: Channeling deities?
Rich Tatum: What do you think about that now?

Kathi:: Gee, you've got a gift for understatement.
Yes … I'm using "channeling" because I'm not sure what else to call it, really. "Possession" might be more accurate. It's not always under his control, whether one comes or not.

Rich Tatum: Well, an understanding guy needs to be understated, you know?
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi:: It terrifies me.
That happened to me, once or twice … someone/something took over for a while. :::shudder:::

Rich Tatum: I'd be careful.

Kathi:: It made me really hesitant to talk to him … after all, who was I really making mad there? And I did say some things that really, really made him upset.
I kind of liken it to talking to the person who raped you.

Rich Tatum: Talk to your pastor, or somebody more skilled in this area. I'd be concerned about the implications of actually dialoging with a spiritual entity without pulling off the gloves and calling it like it is.
Rich Tatum: Yes, that's an analogy close to what I was thinking of.
Rich Tatum: How can a Christian truly be civil to a demon yet still exercise compassion for the "channeler"?

Kathi:: Well, I sent a letter off to Don describing the situation. I'm not certain he knows me well enough to determine that I'm not a flake ;-) I asked if you could rebuke a demon over the internet, he seemed to think so …

Rich Tatum: Oh, you were online with Mike?
Rich Tatum: It wasn't f2f?

Kathi:: I nearly called a halt to the conversation as soon as I realized who I was dealing with (he called me by a pet name that only that one called me by … I nearly fell out of my chair!!)
Yes … he's up near Boston somewhere. We had a f2f, very convoluted love relationship that ended just before I moved to NC.

Rich Tatum: Oh, wow.

Kathi:: The only reason I didn't end the conversation is even though Mike is not usually aware of what goes on when one of them is in him (for lack of a better way to put that), he could read the IM later, or if Rachel (his wife) were there, she would fill him in.

Rich Tatum: All I know is that Jesus said "This kind come out only by prayer and fasting."
Rich Tatum: "Mike" asked you not to pray for him for a good reason.
Rich Tatum: You can't, yourself, risk extended contact with the demonic. Not that I think you would abdicate your new faith, but because I don't think you can afford any kind of cognitive dissonance.
Rich Tatum: Especially combining it with a past lover.

Kathi:: I had just rattled him (Mike) a bit. I asked him who Jesus was and he gave the very typical pagan response of Him having been a great teacher. So I reasoned with him that he couldn't have been, he must have been a liar, a lunatic, or who He said He was (I know you are familiar with the argument). By the time we got through liars and loonies, Mike was pretty well cornered, and that's when the other showed up. (and yes, I'm refusing to even name it, though it has one).
He's really afraid.

Kathi:: cognitive dissonance?

Rich Tatum: Believeing two conflicting ideas at once.

Kathi:: Oh, I don't think I'm in any danger of that …

Rich Tatum: It's like tapping opposite sites of a barrel. Both sides create little waves that spread out until they meet in the center of the barrel. The chaotic waveform in the middle is a good picture of what happens with cognitive dissonance.
Rich Tatum: Well, not with "beliefs" maybe, but it can happen over emotions, too.
Rich Tatum: Your empathy for Mike conflicting with your revulsion for what/who he's channeling.

Kathi:: I'm really afraid for him … and for his kids … who I love dearly.

Rich Tatum: How do you resolve your need to reach out to mike versus your need to reject demonic influences versus a compelling need to rebuke the demon.

Kathi:: What do you suggest?

Rich Tatum: Pray.
Rich Tatum: Pray and fast.
Rich Tatum: I sure hope you didn't promise him you wouldn't pray for him.

Kathi:: He's saying that as long as I'm not praying for him (like that's gonna happen … but anyways) that he'll keep talking with me about this. I'm not certain if Mike said that, or the other.
I told him I'd pray about it <g>

Rich Tatum: That's funny.
Rich Tatum: What keeps coming back to mind is this "Light hath no fellowship with darkness."

Kathi:: Which I've done, and gotten my answer … from God, and also you and Don both have said the same things. I would have been on the phone to my pastor about it all but he's nursing his wife back to health and don't want to disturb him unless this heats up more than it has.
Kathi:: yes, that's true. And I'm not aware of anywhere in the Bible where anyone actually has a conversation with a demon in the hopes of winning over the one possessed. Although I can't think of anywhere where the one possessed wanted to be, either, though.
I know a lot of the spiritual warfare hype is about the need to converse with a demon before you can drive it out … there's a lot of disagreement over all of that (but it all sells a lot of books

Rich Tatum: Sorry. Distraction …

Kathi:: that's ok …

Rich Tatum: Well, I also remember the seven sons of sceva in Acts who tried to drive out demons. "Jesus I know, and Paul I know, but who are you?"
Rich Tatum: They got their asses whipped.

Kathi:: I've always liked that story …

Rich Tatum: Well, there's a lesson in there somewhere.

Kathi:: So what do you suggest I do? Other than pray, of course …

Rich Tatum: Only approach the demonic when the Spirit of God drives you to it.
Rich Tatum: And when you do, be prepared to be confrontational.
Rich Tatum: You'll never find a more informed believer in God than a person under the influence of a demon.
Rich Tatum: ANd that can be troublesome to any believer, much less a relatively new one.
Rich Tatum: You better know that you have your marching orders from God before you do it.

Kathi:: heh … I found that out. there was also a marked difference in the level of our conversation before and after "it" came on the scene. I'm fortunate that you got me in touch with Don, because he's steered me to some really good apologetics resources, and I've learned an awful lot in a short period of time.

Rich Tatum: Excellent.

Kathi:: I don't doubt my marching orders … I've got em.

Rich Tatum: Is this the midwest christian outreach place?

Kathi:: Yes.

Rich Tatum: Good.
Rich Tatum: Well, you can't persuade a demon to let go.

Kathi:: He's a really great guy, very willing to mentor and teach.

Rich Tatum: Ain't going to happen.
Rich Tatum: It's all spiritual judo, and the only preparation for that is on the prayer mat.
Rich Tatum: Of course, you need to know the Word, too, for your own faith.

Kathi:: Like I said, the only reason I talked to it is the hope I could get through to Mike, underneath.

Rich Tatum: I understand.

Kathi:: The best investment I've ever made is a purse-sized Bible. Goes with me everywhere, and I read it all the time. Grocery lines, bank lines, red lights, lunch break, you name it.

Rich Tatum: Awesome.

Kathi:: I need to flip over to my healant name … brb

Jalyssia signed off at 4:42:51 PM.

Kathi: back!

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: Speaking of changing personalities.

Kathi: hehehe

Rich Tatum: You know, missionaries deal with demon possession all the time.
Rich Tatum: Especially in Latin America and the Caribbean.
Rich Tatum: You might contact DFM (dfm@ag.org) to see if they can put you in touch with a stateside missionary with some experience in this.

Kathi: :::nodding::: I know, I'm going to be getting a course in it from "this" side, before I go to Panama.

Rich Tatum: You're going to Panama?

Kathi: Most people who are afflicted don't want to be, though … or am I wrong?

Rich Tatum: Not sure.

Kathi: Yes, in July. I'm involved with the youth group now, and going as a leader on the missions trip to Boca Del Toro/Almirante.

Rich Tatum: I'm sure there have been sociological/psychological studies done in some seminary somewhere. I do know that voluntary choices lead to the contexts where possessions occur.
Rich Tatum: But, I'm not sure about the desires of the possessed after possession.

Kathi: I'm also not certain how many people who are possessed know that this is the problem … whereas Mike knows, even though he disagrees that the entity is necessarily "evil".

Rich Tatum: True.

Kathi: It will be interesting to see how this turns out, in the long run. Of course I've got a lot of feelings tied up in this one … even though I've worked through all the "feelings' tied to the relationship with Mike and Rachel, we are still friends … were for a long time before the relationship and always (I hope) will be. And I love the boys, especially Duncan, who was 2 when I left but still remembers me and calls me "mom" (he called Rachel "mommy") <sigh>
But what I mean is from an academic standpoint …

Kathi: and the fact that this is taking place long-distance, etc.

Rich Tatum: I understand.
Rich Tatum: Who said ministry occurs in control environments?
Rich Tatum: controlled, I mean.

Kathi: this is true. And I'd be kind of silly to think that if God is going to use me to talk to Pagans, the 'net would be excluded, given all my history ON the net … you know? :-)

Rich Tatum: Yes.
Rich Tatum: And there's good and bad with using the 'net for ministry.

Kathi:@$%$#%@!#$ Lyris is down again. I can't stand not working in the office. I need to sign off so I can call and see if anyone's still there, to restart the server. <sigh>

Rich Tatum: For example, everybody weighs the same online.
Rich Tatum: That's a good thing.
Rich Tatum: :-) :-(
Rich Tatum: Have fun with Lyris.
Rich Tatum: I'll be happy when the SQL version is out.

Kathi: <g> and some become much better looking, too ….
But you have a point.
ACK. I'm ready to blow the thing up.

Kathi: I got a note from them that it's in beta test … you heard that, right?

Rich Tatum: Yeah.
Rich Tatum: Our marketing and promotions people are salivating

Kathi: I know … I know … !
Kathi: Well, I gotta call them, and start dinner … thanks for talking to me about this. There's been many a time that I've sincerely thanked God for you digging through old mail and answering that Lyris problem so long ago, and tonight's gonna be another of those times. ;-)

Rich Tatum: Sorry I couldn't help more this time.
Rich Tatum: I'm not terribly experienced at this sort of thing.
Rich Tatum: Thanks for your appreciation.

Kathi: You never fail to encourage me … which is usually what I need even more than a definitive answer.

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: I'm happy to help!

Kathi: Talk to you later … tell your wife I'm praying for her … :-)

Rich Tatum: I will. Thanks!

Kathi: oooh, look in your mail. Lyris just sent a letter about click through tracking.

Rich Tatum: http://www.apts.edu/ajps/00-1/s-carter.pdf
Rich Tatum: Demon Possession and the Christian (72K Pdf)

Kathi: well, the first couple paragraphs are kinda scary.

Rich Tatum: The paper refutes it.

Kathi: very interesting. I'm going to have to print it and read in detail. Thanks :-)
Talk to you soon!

Rich Tatum: The clickthrough tracker is handy, but a little old cgi on a server would do the same thing.
Rich Tatum: Oke.
Rich Tatum: Later.

Kathi: hmmm I asked the server guy at Healant if we could do that, and he said something about it not working because of something in Lyris? I dunno, I'm not a server guy ;-)
later, this time I mean it … <g>