The Sharpe Logs

Kathi: hey … want to hear something interesting and inspiring (and personally scary)? My son decided last night that he wants to be a missionary to China.

Rich Tatum: Huh.
Rich Tatum: Wow.
Rich Tatum: I decided at age 13 that God wanted me to be a missionary to Latin America.

Kathi: Our whole family has missionary fever … our church has a team of about 25 leaving for Russia this evening. They're going to be on the Russia/China border, giving out the 100 millionth copy of the Book of Hope.

Really? did you go?

Rich Tatum: I sat down and evaluated all the things that I was skilled or gifted at doing (at age 13) and concluded that I could only be happy serving God as a missionary.

Kathi: My stepdaughter has asked me (not her mother, mind you) to go with her to Panama next year.

Rich Tatum: I went to Mexico on two brief missions trips (a couple weeks duration each time). I studied Spanish in high school and learned the guitar (figured it's easier to carry than a piano! :-) ), preparing myself.

Went to Bible college in the Fall of '86 and my eyes were opened. I realized that God was calling me to ministry and that my definition of ministry needed to be broadened. See, up till then, I honestly figured you were either a pastor, an evangelist, or a missionary. And I figured, with my skills and intersts, being a missionary was the only real option for me.

I decided, in Bible College, to simply do what God gives me to do — to do whatever my hand finds to do — and to do it with "all my might." (Not that God sanctions workaholism.)

Kathi: <grins>

Rich Tatum: I still hanker to get into full-time church ministry sometime — but God has prevented me, so far.

Kathi: not that you're a workaholic … right?

Rich Tatum: No.
Rich Tatum: I'm just — perfectionistic.

Kathi: mmm-hmmmm.

Rich Tatum: I do have an addictive personality, though, so I have to be careful what I immerse myself in.
Rich Tatum: I would cultivate and nurture your son's interst in missions as much as you feel comfortable. But, remember, the Bible says "Lay hands on no man suddenly."

Kathi: me too … I tend to get going on something, to the point of excluding everything else. In fact, a few people have accused me of doing that with Christianity. :-)

Rich Tatum: This is an admonition that the newly converted shouldn't be rushed into ministry and ministry-decisions.
Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: You and your son need to take the time to get grounded in the Word and in Christian fellowship. Not that being enthusiastic about missions is bad — not at all.

Kathi: I told Bobby last night that if he wants to go to China, or anywhere else, he'd better pay attention in Sunday School and church :-) And that he'd better grow a few years.

Rich Tatum: But it may be unrealistic to be making long-term life-decisions this quickly after having made a decision for Christ. It's entirely possible — though — that God has led him to this conviction.
Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: Good points.

Kathi: He's only 11 … he's got some preparing to do.

Rich Tatum: In the A/G, the Division of Foreign Missions really prefers the missionaries have bible college training. Cross Cultural C ommunications is a plus, but strong Bible and theology knowledge is a plus. And before you ever head out to the field you have to spend a year in language school — mastering the language.

Kathi: I've always been supportive of what the kids want to do as long as it's a healthy interest … I figure if he spends the next 5 years studying his Bible hard and paying attention in church … even if he's NOT called to be a missionary … it'll be a GOOD thing :-)

Rich Tatum: Then one year out of every four you have to come back to the States to tour churches and raise money for the next three years in the field.
Rich Tatum: It's a gruelling existence and it's very hard on the children.

Kathi: Really? I didn't know that last …

Rich Tatum: Which part?

Kathi: I couldn't imagine being a missionary with children.

That they have to come back every 4th year to raise $

Rich Tatum: Ayup.
Rich Tatum: We call it "itineration."
Rich Tatum: All the missionaries do it — even the missionaries appointed to serve at the national headquarters.
Rich Tatum: Even home missionaries do this.

Kathi: Hey … opinion time … how much of my background do you think I should talk about to Janie?

Rich Tatum: (Home missions is cross-cultural ministry here in the States. It has its own division at the national headquarters.)
Rich Tatum: Enough to let her know where you're coming from.

Kathi: I suppose in addition to providing needed money, it gives perspective time and prevents long-term burnout … yes?

Rich Tatum: Certainly let her know you're a recent convert and weren't raised in church — so you know what it's like to be outside of the faith.
Rich Tatum: Yes, it's a double-benefit.
Rich Tatum: It's really a major hassle to stopo everything every three years and come back for two months of meetings and nine months of travelling from church to church. And the three years in-between is spent sending a lot of newsletters and licking stamps.

Kathi: I bet it is …
Kathi: I'm not certain I could do that, even if I didn't have kids.

Rich Tatum: The benefit for the missionary is that they are kept on their toes. Our missionaries are typically not very lazy. The home churches are always asking for results! :-)

Kathi: <grin> I bet!

Rich Tatum: The benefit to the churches is that the missionaries we support are always befoire our faces and the "fever" for missions is constantly being flamed by veterans returning from the front lines to give reports.
Rich Tatum: Some churches have missionaries in the pulpit every month.
Rich Tatum: Some churches, sadly, don't allow missionaries to come speak because they feel that the missionaries are just there to beg for money.

Kathi: How much time/$/effort to A/G churches usually spend on the people in their own backyards, though? I'm wondering if my church is typical … there's not been a lot of local, non-prison outreach until very recently.

Rich Tatum: (These churche's don't rate in my book.)
Rich Tatum: Foreign missions gets most of the attention.
Rich Tatum: But home missions still has a pretty significant budget in many churches.
Rich Tatum: Your pastor would tell you, though.
Rich Tatum: Every church and every community is different.
Rich Tatum: Every church has its own personality. Some churches are very evangelistic. As a result, they have great outreach programs but they also tend to be weaker on long-term discipleship.

Kathi: <g> and some missionaries are not good in the pulpit. My very first experience at this church was listening to some missionary from Bangladesh rattle on about saving the Muslims. He was not a good speaker, either. At the time, I couldn't figure out why anyone would WANT to save a Muslim :-)

Rich Tatum: Some churches are great on discipliship and mentoring and spiritual growth, but not so strong on outreach and evangelistm. Some churches have great kids programs, others have great seniors programs. Some focus on homeless, some on the prisons, some on the homebound.

Kathi: We've just started sending a team to one of the projects … they're doing afterschool care and fun things for the kids … they've only been doing it a few weeks, and it's very successful so far.

Rich Tatum: Most missionaries are not good preachers, in my opinion.
Rich Tatum: But, the pastors often restrict them by telling them not to preach — that they only want updates, slides, and such.

Kathi: So it's a church personality thing, then …

He's the only one I've ever met … fortunately I have an open mind that I won't run from the next one.

Rich Tatum: Well, it's partly a personality thing, and a vision thing, and a maturity thing.
Rich Tatum: I think every church ought to try to shape growth in worship, discipleship, evangelism, and community.
Rich Tatum: How that works out in each church can be infinite in variety.

Kathi: I agree … it's that balance thing. :-)

Rich Tatum: But I've been to a lot of churches that were weak in one of those four areas, and it's very very hard to find a church that has a strong, balanced approach in each.
Rich Tatum: Currently, I think the A/G is in a strong "worship" phase overall, with a recent emphasis on "evangelism."

Kathi: I think the only weak link in this church is on community, and they recognize it and are changing it.

Rich Tatum: The "Worship" emphasis is probably a result of the recent revival experiences a lot of churches are having — and worship always feels good. The Evangelism emphasis comes fromt he realization that revival really ought to lead to growth.
Rich Tatum: I think, overall, the weakest area for the A/G as a whole is in discipleship.

Kathi: you know, I need to stop saying "they" and start saying "we" <g> According to the pastor, we should be getting membership acceptance letters in the mail soon.

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: (the "You" vs. "We" pronoun confusion thing happened to me last time I switched employers.)

Kathi: I never felt that "belonging" to an organization of any sort was a good thing … but I tell you … the sense of "belonging' we're getting from church is a wonderful thing.
Kathi: <g> I've had that happen before

Rich Tatum: Our pastors are not required to have a college degree in order to get licensed or ordained. This movement has always had a strong "too much studying quenches the Spirit" fear.

Kathi: ::;blink::: they're not??

Rich Tatum: Nope.
Rich Tatum: A lot of pastors get a Bible College degree, but it's not required.
Rich Tatum: Most other denoms. require at least a BA if not an MA. Mainline denominations require an MDiv at least.
Rich Tatum: The bare minimimum for A/G credentialling are a few correspondence courses from our Distance Education school — but that's a minimum, and it's only theology and some Bible.
Rich Tatum: My main critique of the A/G (my own fellowship — remember) is the death of literacy in our pulpit.

Kathi: Wow … I had no idea. That must be what my father in law was ranting about the other day. ;>

My mother in law goes to church with us … and went home the other day talking about <gasp> people clapping their hands in church, plus healings and people speaking in tongues and who knows what else. They've always been UltraBaptists who would never <gasp> clap their hands or do anything unseemly :-) She loves it. He thinks she's gone off and joined a cult.

Rich Tatum: At a time when the overwhelming majority of citizens in America are functionally illiterate — it seems out pulpits are in as bad a shape
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: I can see that too much studying would quench the Spirit … it's entirely possible to end up too hidebound! But not enough studying would quench the Word … yes?

Rich Tatum: I think so, yes.
Rich Tatum: But, God is interesting.
Rich Tatum: I take very seriously Paul's command to Timothy to be very careful to handle the Word of Truth with care, and to study to handle it correctly.
Rich Tatum: So, I tend to take offense when I hear a preacher — who ought to know better — creatively mishandle some passage.

Kathi: :::nodding:::

Rich Tatum: But, strangely, most of the time what the preacher is saying is not theologically incorrect — nor does it contradict the whole of Scipture.
Rich Tatum: He's just being creative with the local text.
Rich Tatum: Which is still offensive to me, but it seems that God somehow protects the church from getting an overdose of heresy every Sunday morning.

Kathi: You know, I just thought of something. I bet you know my pastor's uncle … he's a higher-up in the AG organization … assistant super, maybe? His name is Charles Crabtree … our pastor is David Crabtree.

Rich Tatum: Still, I won't attend a church for long when the pastor frequently mishandles the Word.

Kathi: <grin> sometimes … I could tell you my thoughts of many a sunday morning in a new england church …

Rich Tatum: Unfortunately, I've had four years of Bible college and a couple years of seminary which together make me a tough audience to sell.
Rich Tatum: But, if I were the senior pastor I can tell you what the situation would be.
Rich Tatum: We'd have a church well known for its discipleship and community-based programs but likely weak in worship and evangelism.
Rich Tatum: :-(
Rich Tatum: My personality would reflect itself in my church style.
Rich Tatum: It would be imperative for me to hire assistants who would bring balance to my imbalance.
Rich Tatum: And vice-versa.

Kathi: :::nodding::: makes perfect sense.

Rich Tatum: The A/Gs lack of requirements on formal education stem from our history as a movement in the early 1900s.
Rich Tatum: Most of the early A/G ministers were literally kicked out of the mainline denominations because of the Tongues issue.

Kathi: Yes, I've read about that. (sounds like what my fatherinlaw's doing to my motherinlaw, on a much grander scale)

Rich Tatum: All the mainline denoms required Masters of Divinity or PHD degrees for credentialling, and all the arguments against Pentecostalism (and tongues and healing in particular) were crafted by erudite scholars and theologians, it's easy to understand why the first A/G leadership were very chary of any sort of formal education.
Rich Tatum: Also, as result of our distaste for denominationalism, the A/G was founded as a "voluntary cooperative fellowship of ministers."

Rich Tatum: To this day you'll hear preachers refer to the A/G as a "fellowship" or a "movement" but never a "denomination."
Rich Tatum: And if you refer to the A/G as a denomination within earshot of a credentialled A/G minister — you'll likely be corrected.

Kathi: Yep … I've read that too … I had to do some thought processing on that one … after all, what IS a denomination?

<grin> yes, I was.

Rich Tatum: Thus, we have the "16 Fundamental Truths" instead of some highly complex codification of rules, doctrinces, and practices.

Kathi: which is what prompted me to go and read and re-read everything on the a/g website and about 10 other sites, pro and con …

Rich Tatum: Well, my thinking is, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then — by golly — lets call the thing a duck.
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: LOL
Kathi: Do you have time to tell me about speaking in tongues?

Rich Tatum: No need to wait around for a stool sample to take to the lab, now, is therea?
Rich Tatum: The leaderships' resistance to bow to the definition is only evidence of our fear of denominational control. As a fellowship our churches have autonomy and the headquarters only coordinations educational literature and services.
Rich Tatum: HQ is not supposed to pass down dogma or practice for any local church.

Rich Tatum: Sure,.
Rich Tatum: What do you have questions about?

Kathi: Everything.
Kathi: <grin>

Rich Tatum: (I have to warn you, though, I may not have exactly the party line.)
Rich Tatum: (I can give you a handful of minutes. I need to get a lot done after lunch …. I'll tell you when we need to pause.)

Kathi: I suppose I've done enough research to know WHAT it is and is not … although I may have over-researched myself.

Rich Tatum: Okay.
Rich Tatum: And?

Kathi: party line isn't what I want. <g> And tell me to bug off so you can go back to work anytime.

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: (After all, I am the guy who said it's not necessarily a sin to cuss now and then … )

Kathi: OK … party line is that speaking in tongues is the initial physical evidence that one has been baptized in the Spirit. Is that what you believe/know/?
Kathi: well now, that's true …

Rich Tatum: Yes. But I have to qualify it.
Rich Tatum: The party line is definitely "Tongues is the initial physical evidence … "
Rich Tatum: And that wording is very careful.
Rich Tatum: It's "initial" and it isn't required to be ongoing.
Rich Tatum: It's "physical," which is not to say that there aren't other, more important, evidences.
Rich Tatum: And it's "evidence," which means it really shouldn't get primary position in terms of importance.

Kathi: :::nodding::: I've read 100 conflicting viewpoints, on that :-)

But it always happens, and it always happens in verbal form … not in a dream, for example?

Rich Tatum: For it to qualify as initial physical evidence it would literally have to be glossalallia.
Rich Tatum: But, suppose you had no vocal cords?
Rich Tatum: I've heard of people signing — who have never learned a sign language — after receiving the baptism of the spirit.
Rich Tatum: I'd say that qualifies.

Kathi: I would too.

Rich Tatum: Okay, bottom line, to me.
Rich Tatum: Tongues is not nearly as important in the New Testament as we have made it in the A/G.
Rich Tatum: What is important is love, and the character wrought by the Holy Spirit's presence in our lives.
Rich Tatum: The tongues "issue" though, is an issue for A/G pentecostals because we've had to draw a line somewhere, theologically, about what sets Pentecostal theology apart from, say, a really emotive Baptist theology.

Kathi: :::nodding::: "though I speak with the tongues of men and angels, if I have not love …. ." yes?

Rich Tatum: What makes us distinctive is our insistance that Luke's account in Acts has a theological purpose to teach something. And that in the three major accounts of the infilling, they were each accompanied by tongues.
Rich Tatum: Yes.
Rich Tatum: You got it.,
Rich Tatum: Paul clearly subordinated Tongues to love and the other works of the Spirit.
Rich Tatum: And the whole latter section of 1 Corinthians is a beatiful treatment of Tongues and its proper role in the church.

Kathi: yes … I've read it.

Rich Tatum: But, the thing is, I say don't get hung up on this.
Rich Tatum: Christ promised the Holy Spirit, he didn't promise us Tongues.
Rich Tatum: He promised that the Holy Spirit would be a comforter and a counselor and would provide power for witness.
Rich Tatum: I say, you can't go wrong focussing on what Christ said about the matter.
Rich Tatum: The "initial physical evidence" stuff is great, and valid as far as I'm concerned — but evidence has its place — Usually in a court of law.
Rich Tatum: And who's going to judge whether you're filled with the Spirit or not?

Kathi: So … I've gone from not believing it was real, to "nudge-nudge, is that lady crazy or what" to "wow, this is neat" to "well everyone else is doing it" to "am I missing something important in my relationship with God?"

Rich Tatum: I'm not sure how to answer that last question.

Kathi: you can be the only judge of that. Tongues can be faked, after all … and so can behavior, for a time.

Rich Tatum: That's true. And I think there's more mimicry going on that would be admitted to in a lot of our altar services.
Rich Tatum: But that's another discussion … <grin>.
Rich Tatum: You see, when I met my wife, she'd never spoken in tongues or had an experience that would qualify (to her) as "being baptized in the Spirit."

Kathi: :::nodding:::

Rich Tatum: She wouldn't tell me this, for a long time, because she was worried that I would react like all of her gung ho friends and family reacted.
Rich Tatum: Every time a concerned Pentecostal found out she'd never spoke in tongues, guess what happened? They'd drag her down to the altar, gather a dozen people around her to clutch and grab at her and "lay hands on her" and "pray her through to the Spirit!" "Hold on Jennifer! Hold on to God!" "Let go, Jennifer! Let go of yourself!" Look up, Jennifer! Look up to God!" "Look inside, Jennifer! Examine your heart!" And so on …

Kathi signed off at 1:09:22 PM.

Rich Tatum: Every … time … she admitted this, the reaction was the same. She got to where not only was she desperate for the experience, she was paranoid about being honest about it around other "tongues speaking" Christians. She told me and I said, "Okay." And let it go.

Previous message was not received by Kathi because of error: User Kathi is not available.

Kathi signed on at 1:09:34 PM.

Rich Tatum: Every … time … she admitted this, the reaction was the same. She got to where not only was she desperate for the experience, she was paranoid about being honest about it around other "tongues speaking" Christians. She told me and I said, "Okay." And let it go.

Kathi: oh dear … I know how I would have reacted! <g>

Rich Tatum: How?

Kathi: I probably would have slapped someone :-)

Rich Tatum: <grin>
Rich Tatum: What was of more moment to me was that at that point in her life she'd never been water-baptized! For one reason or another it'd just never happened — even though she'd been raised in an A/G church and had very devout parents.

Kathi: Really?

I never have been, either.

Rich Tatum: So, to me, this was non-negotiable. Spirit-baptized or not, water baptism was a mandate. So, on our wedding rehearsal night, Jennifer was baptized, and it was a very emotional experience.
Rich Tatum: Well, after making a decision for Christ, the water baptism ritual is designed to make a public declaration of that decision.
Rich Tatum: It's a rite of passge that is also symbolic of having been buried with Christ and raised again with him in spirit.

Kathi: :::nodding::: I'm going to be, soon …

Rich Tatum: Good!
Rich Tatum: I've had a few other friends who sought the Baptism of the Spirit for years and have never experienced it.

Kathi: I guess i'm asking all of this because I still feel like something's missing … like most of the puzzle pieces are together but there's still something in the box. Does that make sense?

Rich Tatum: And, I must confess, this is one issue that continually vexes pastors. Some get it without asking, some get it immediately upon asking, some a few hours or days later (by surprise!), some have ecstatic experiences, some barely notice it, some have dramatic life-changes, others sense more peace and security.
Rich Tatum: God's gift and when and how he chooses to dispense are entirely at his discretion.
Rich Tatum: Yeah, I understand.
Rich Tatum: Part of it may be your experiences at church.
Rich Tatum: Which is one reason I wouldn't encourage so much of the public tongues-speaking as is typical at most A/G churches.
Rich Tatum: Paul actually discourages public tongues unless there is an interpretation. This injunction by Paul seems to be ignored in every A/G church I've every attended.
Rich Tatum: Plus, Paul makes it clear that glossalalia (tongues) is prayer or praise.
Rich Tatum: And almost every interpretation of a tongue I've heard in church has been couched in phrases like a prophetic utterance.

Kathi: I know that some of it is pure inhibition … I'm beyond the point where clapping and dancing in church doesn't bother me (much) <g>

It's not very typical in our church. In fact, we did a bible study on what Paul had to say in Corinthians on the subject of interpretation and all.

The church we visited at the beach, however, there were a couple people carrying on in tongues. It was … an experience. :-)

Rich Tatum: So, I think that while we've got the best thing going for Pentecostal Christians, the A/G doesn't always line its practice up with Scripture.
Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: Yeah, it usually is.

Kathi: I have what may be a silly question … how come sometimes the language is ancient … sometimes it's a language currently in use … and other times, it's completely unknown?

Rich Tatum: I have to confess that I sometimes wonder when I hear Pentecostals praying in tounges in repetivve monosyllables whether that is truly an "unknown" tongue: "a di-di a di-di a di-di a di-di a di-di aaaa …. "
Rich Tatum: The language of an autistic angel maybe?

Kathi: For example, one person I heard speaking in modern Egyptian arabic.
Kathi: ROFL heresy, blasphemy … :::flee:::

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: LOL.
Rich Tatum: Well, it does make one wonder.
Rich Tatum: I don't know, except that in Acts 2 we see the disciples praising God in tongues that were clearly understood by the crowd members, but which were unfamiliar tongues to the disciples.

Kathi: While I don't know the language myself enough to speak it, I've heard it enough that I can recognize it.

I have no doubt that this person wasn't likely to have known the language … I don't think it was fake … my gut says it was for real.

Rich Tatum: That's the first precedent for human tongues.

Kathi: :::nodding:::

Rich Tatum: Maybe God rolls a heavenly die to determine which language a Pentecostal gets when baptized?
Rich Tatum: I always wish mine was a language someone would recognize and come up to me and say "Did you realize you were speaking midieval Basque, and that I am one of only two living speakers of this language?" What a kick that would be!
Rich Tatum: But God has his designs, and who can say?

Kathi signed off at 1:23:55 PM.
Kathi signed on at 1:24:25 PM.

Kathi: got booted …
Kathi: someone just cut a powerline outside. we have computers but no lights go figure!

Rich Tatum: Oke
Rich Tatum: Plus, regarding your question, Paul says "Tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers" wheras "Prophecy is for believers, not for unbelievers."

Kathi: yes, this is true.

Rich Tatum: Can you imagine any better sign for an unbeliver who speaks modern Egyption to walk into some urban church to see a middle aged white housewife speaking his home language fluently, praising God with beautiful idiom?
Rich Tatum: Man, what an experience that would be.
Rich Tatum: So, perhaps God grants you the language that a sinner will hear at some distant point in the future.
Rich Tatum: ?
Rich Tatum: Who knows?

Kathi: yes! It actually did have an impact on me, not even knowing what was being said.

Rich Tatum: But, all that being said, I still say "Don't sweat the tongues stuff."
Rich Tatum: Tongues is only the "initial" and "phyiscal" evidence of tongues.
Rich Tatum: I mean, of Baptism in the Spirit.

Kathi: OK … but I still do feel like something is missing. So how do I get it?

Rich Tatum: The the better evidences, I think, are love and a power to witness.
Rich Tatum: The early disciples' instructions were to wait.

Kathi: the Lord knows I'm not the most patient person in the world :-)

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum:
« Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father
promised, which you have heard me speak about. For John
baptized with water, but in a few days you will be
baptized with the Holy Spirit. »
Rich Tatum: Now, remember, this promise and command were couched specifically to the disciples/apostles.
Rich Tatum: But, the advice seems to apply!
Rich Tatum: I'd also look forward to your water baptism next. I've actually heard stories of believers breaking out into tongues the moment they come up out of the water!

Kathi: Yes but … later, some believers were asked (I think by Paul but I can't recall for sure) if they'd been baptized in the Spirit, and when they said no, they prayed for it and received it right then … yes?

Rich Tatum: And a friend once explained to me that you have to follow in obedience the things you know to do before God can respond with gifts of blessings.
Rich Tatum: Yes.

Kathi: That was one of my other questions … CAN I recieve the Spirit, if I have not been baptized in water?

Rich Tatum: And, since they were believers, it seems the custom was to be bapatized in water immediately after making adecision.
Rich Tatum: I dunno.
Rich Tatum: I suppose it's just as possible — I've heard of people being baptized in the Spirit immediately upon conversion, too.

Kathi: hmmmm.

Rich Tatum: Also, remember, in Acts time is not always as it seems. A daylong travel by boat might have actually taken weeks.

Kathi: true

Rich Tatum: Though the text does say "when Paul placed his hands on them."
Rich Tatum: And, the other thing to remember — find someone who's as spiritually mature as Paul and who knows the mind of God like Paul did, and have that dude lay hands on you! How many pastors do you know who could preach so long that a boy could fall asleep, fall off the balcony, and die — and then get prayed for by that preacher and come back to life? !!

Kathi: :::sigh::: another meeting.

Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: Good point!
Kathi: be back in a minute … I hope!

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: I may go to lunch now …
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: not a meeting, a birthday party. want some cake? :-)
Kathi: thanks for patiently answering my questions :-)

Rich Tatum: Yeah, send some!
Rich Tatum: My pleasure.
Rich Tatum: I don't know how much I help, though, especially when I say "be patient, God is sovereign, and it's his gift."

Kathi: A big piece of it is simple reassurance … when researching something like this on the web and in books, it's hard to know the background of the author. I've read some pretty strange things out there … and really don't have enough background to know if something is borderline or not.

Rich Tatum: Read anything by Stanly G. Horton.

Kathi: ok …

Rich Tatum: He wrote a commentary on Acts I recommended to you, and he also wrote a very good book on the Person and Work of the Holy Spirit.
Rich Tatum: He's a good A/G theologian who has taught at our seminaries for years, but is a very easy to read author.
Rich Tatum: He's very aged now.

Kathi: I know that if I ask you something, you'll give an honest answer, you're able to back it up scripturally, and you're able to explain the rationale behind what you're saying. And you don't just spout the A/G party line. " :-)

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: I think that's a compliment!

Kathi: I remember now … it's in my little book that I carry with me. Next time I'm at the bookstore, I'll inquire.


Rich Tatum: Stanley M. Horton.
Rich Tatum: Sorry. Wrong middle initial!

Kathi: okie …

Rich Tatum: What the Bible Says about the Holy Spirit

Kathi: do you know how recently it was published? or is it forever in reprint, so I should be able to find it easily?

Rich Tatum:
What the Bible Says about the Holy Spirit
Stanley M. Horton
Retails: $11.99 $10.80
ISBN: 0882436473

Rich Tatum: Published in 1976.
Rich Tatum: But it was also published by the Gospel Publishing House, at the Assemblies of God Headquarters, and they tend to keep it in print.
Rich Tatum: You could order it from an online Christian retailer:
Rich Tatum: Or you could always call GPH and have them ship you a copy for the retail price.

Kathi: :::nodding::: gph just launched a website, I think … I've heard of them somewhere, within the last couple of days.

Rich Tatum:
Gospel Publishing House
1445 N. Boonville Avenue
Springfield, MO 65802


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Rich Tatum: They just launched:
Rich Tatum: But you can also find them at
Rich Tatum: Ufortunately, they don't have their catalog online yet.

Kathi: ok …
Kathi: good thing my kids don't know about this site.
Kathi: Bobby would spend major $$ on the royal rangers stuff! backpacks and everything.

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: PS: You might sometimes find this useful -

Society for Pentecostal Studies

Kathi: that's one I haven't seen before …

Rich Tatum: It's a very academic bunch of Pentecostal nerds, but they're on the "cutting edge" of dialog about pentecostalism and what it means to be Pentecostal.

Kathi: terrible font choice :-) But it looks like a fascinating site!

Rich Tatum: Yeah, atrocious.
Rich Tatum: Somebody really ought to give them a design clue!
Rich Tatum: Gordon Fee is another great pentecostal writer who is very well recognized outside of the A/G,.
Rich Tatum: His commentary on 1 Corinthians is standout.
Rich Tatum: This could be interesting: Ma, Wonsuk. "'If It is a Sign': An Old Testament Reflection on the Initial Evidence Discussion," Asian Journal of Pentecostal Studies , 2:2 (July 1999): 163-175.
Rich Tatum: Or this: Gladstone, Robert J. " Sign Language in the Assembly: How Are Tongues a Sign to the Unbeliever in I Cor. 14:20-25 ," Asian Journal of Pentecostal Studies, 2:2 (July 1999): 177-194.

Kathi: Asian Journal? I wonder if they've got a web site.

Rich Tatum: David Lim is also a good student, as I remember:

Lim, David S. "An Evangelical Critique of the ‘Initial Evidence' Doctrine," Asian Journal of Pentecostal Studies, 1:2 (July 1998): 219-229.

Rich Tatum: They might …
Rich Tatum:

Kathi: you're good :-)

Rich Tatum: APTS is the Asia Pacific Theological Seminary — it's one of our best theological schools (it's A/G)
Rich Tatum: I know.
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: <grin>

Rich Tatum: Yeah, peruse AJPS, I think you'll find much food for thought there.
Rich Tatum: Tongues: An Experience for All in the Pauline Churches?

Kathi: I'm having a hard time writing to Janie. It sounds like she knew the ex was bad, so why did she leave the kids with him, and not her family?

Rich Tatum: I've been wondering whether her email is bait..
Rich Tatum: But, then, some people have serious wisdom deficiencies.

Kathi: any idea where she came from? Her AOL profile is very plain.

Rich Tatum: No clue.

Kathi: true

Rich Tatum: The AJPS site helps restore my faith in a the remnant of literate Pentecostals.
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: It looks very scholarly.

Rich Tatum: :-)
Rich Tatum: You can handle it.

Kathi: hey, doesn't Paul talk at one point about God not causing you harm to prove a point … do you know what I'm talking about?

Rich Tatum: Hmm …
Rich Tatum: Not ringing any bells yet..

Kathi: <grin> yeah, but … :::whine:::

Actually, I'm reading ravi zechariah (not sure I spelled that right) right now … he's pretty scholarly … harvard, I think …

Rich Tatum: But I think James, or somebody, says that trials are sometimes a result of the need for discipline.

Kathi: I wish I had a better memory.

Rich Tatum: Yeah, Ravi's scary smart.
Rich Tatum: i haven't actually finished one of his books yet.
Rich Tatum: I bought a couple and I'm working up the nerve to engage them.
Rich Tatum: And I just have too much fun reading Dean Koontz.
Rich Tatum: :-)

Kathi: LOL

Kathi signed off at 2:18:22 PM.

The Sharpe Logs: email and chat transcripts with Kathi Sharpe, ex-Wiccan
© 2001 by Richard A. Tatum Email
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