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	<title>Comments on: Apostasy: Rejecting Ideas</title>
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	<description>Pentecostal Rumination and Review</description>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/comment-page-1/#comment-66479</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jun 2007 06:29:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/#comment-66479</guid>
		<description>Hi, Ross, thanks for commenting!

I think what Ray Comfort advocates makes a lot of sense intellectually. I do advocate this approach personally, and I to use this approach whenever I&#039;m asked about my faith. I do believe that people who make the leap of faith to embrace Jesus should also do so with the knowledge that repentance is required as well as obedience, they should know that in their former way of living, they were destined to an eternal death.

However, the problem I have with this approach is that it still bends away from the relational benefits of loving people. I do believe that if you truly love someone, you&#039;ll warn them of the dangers of their course of action. But generally the love must be expressed first well before the presentation of the gospel. For the gospel is not truly good news to the recipient until a) they know the dire straits they are in (Comfort&#039;s approach) and b) the recognize that the person sharing the good news actually has good news.

When salesmen come to my door hawking their wares, I don&#039;t care how good their product is. I don&#039;t even care whether I actually need the product. I find their door-bell ringing and foot-in-the door methods intrusive and frustrating.

However, when a friend of mine says, &quot;Dude, you should check this out...&quot; I&#039;m far more inclined to listen, especially if my friend is responding to an actual need and especially if I get the sense that my friend is sharing this good news without regard to personal benefit. In other words, I&#039;ll listen because I believe my friend isn&#039;t a shill.

We are told to go and make disciples. I think that phrase, that command, is far too poorly understood and far too ignored in the Western church. I know I have neglected it. How about you?

If I am to make a disciple, I have to first be a disciple. My life must have evidence of change. It is an impossibility to make disciples without first having been mentored into Christ&#039;s way. Sure, I can make converts, but they won&#039;t be disciples. They&#039;ll be unattached, floating adrift in the sea of pews, and they may soon vanish from the Church.

And if I am to make a disciple I must attract disciples. Potential converts must see in me something they lack, something they need. My character and the fruit of the Spirit in my life should be such that potential acolytes of Jesus attach themselves to me in order to learn more about this way of living, being, and doing. And when I say to my unbelieving friends, &quot;Look this isn&#039;t working out for you, have you considered &lt;i&gt;this&lt;/i&gt;?&quot; they&#039;ll know to listen because they&#039;ve seen a difference in the way I live in grace versus their own stumbling about.

That said, there is a place for talking to strangers with whom you have no prior relationship, but I still fully believe every encouter must absolutely be bathed in the love of Jesus flowing through our lives.

These encounters don&#039;t need to be scripted or forced. I&#039;ve experienced enough of them to know better&#160;&#8212; especially when I have prayed beforehand for an opportunity to arise, and one actually does through no machination of my own.

And when that happens, an oft-repeated phrase I hear is, &quot;I don&#039;t know why I&#039;m telling you all this!&quot;

I truly believe that rather than focusing on evangelism, we should focus on getting out of the pews, out of the church walls, and get out there to build bridges and friendship with our neighbors.

Assuming you&#039;ve been discipled that is. Jesus waited some time before sending out the 70. Paul waited some time before beginning his ministry. There needs to be a time of solidifying and training and walking in this new life before being sent out to build new bridges to unbelievers.

Regards,

Rich
&lt;a href=&quot;http://tatumweb.com/blog/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;BlogRodent&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Ross, thanks for commenting!</p>
<p>I think what Ray Comfort advocates makes a lot of sense intellectually. I do advocate this approach personally, and I to use this approach whenever I&#8217;m asked about my faith. I do believe that people who make the leap of faith to embrace Jesus should also do so with the knowledge that repentance is required as well as obedience, they should know that in their former way of living, they were destined to an eternal death.</p>
<p>However, the problem I have with this approach is that it still bends away from the relational benefits of loving people. I do believe that if you truly love someone, you&#8217;ll warn them of the dangers of their course of action. But generally the love must be expressed first well before the presentation of the gospel. For the gospel is not truly good news to the recipient until a) they know the dire straits they are in (Comfort&#8217;s approach) and b) the recognize that the person sharing the good news actually has good news.</p>
<p>When salesmen come to my door hawking their wares, I don&#8217;t care how good their product is. I don&#8217;t even care whether I actually need the product. I find their door-bell ringing and foot-in-the door methods intrusive and frustrating.</p>
<p>However, when a friend of mine says, &#8220;Dude, you should check this out&#8230;&#8221; I&#8217;m far more inclined to listen, especially if my friend is responding to an actual need and especially if I get the sense that my friend is sharing this good news without regard to personal benefit. In other words, I&#8217;ll listen because I believe my friend isn&#8217;t a shill.</p>
<p>We are told to go and make disciples. I think that phrase, that command, is far too poorly understood and far too ignored in the Western church. I know I have neglected it. How about you?</p>
<p>If I am to make a disciple, I have to first be a disciple. My life must have evidence of change. It is an impossibility to make disciples without first having been mentored into Christ&#8217;s way. Sure, I can make converts, but they won&#8217;t be disciples. They&#8217;ll be unattached, floating adrift in the sea of pews, and they may soon vanish from the Church.</p>
<p>And if I am to make a disciple I must attract disciples. Potential converts must see in me something they lack, something they need. My character and the fruit of the Spirit in my life should be such that potential acolytes of Jesus attach themselves to me in order to learn more about this way of living, being, and doing. And when I say to my unbelieving friends, &#8220;Look this isn&#8217;t working out for you, have you considered <i>this</i>?&#8221; they&#8217;ll know to listen because they&#8217;ve seen a difference in the way I live in grace versus their own stumbling about.</p>
<p>That said, there is a place for talking to strangers with whom you have no prior relationship, but I still fully believe every encouter must absolutely be bathed in the love of Jesus flowing through our lives.</p>
<p>These encounters don&#8217;t need to be scripted or forced. I&#8217;ve experienced enough of them to know better&nbsp;&mdash; especially when I have prayed beforehand for an opportunity to arise, and one actually does through no machination of my own.</p>
<p>And when that happens, an oft-repeated phrase I hear is, &#8220;I don&#8217;t know why I&#8217;m telling you all this!&#8221;</p>
<p>I truly believe that rather than focusing on evangelism, we should focus on getting out of the pews, out of the church walls, and get out there to build bridges and friendship with our neighbors.</p>
<p>Assuming you&#8217;ve been discipled that is. Jesus waited some time before sending out the 70. Paul waited some time before beginning his ministry. There needs to be a time of solidifying and training and walking in this new life before being sent out to build new bridges to unbelievers.</p>
<p>Regards,</p>
<p>Rich<br />
<a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/">BlogRodent</a></p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/comment-page-1/#comment-66295</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jun 2007 05:27:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/#comment-66295</guid>
		<description>Is there any way of evangelising and discipling people so that they&#039;re less likely to fall away down the track?

Some critics of modern evangelism techniques, such as evangelist Ray Comfort, assert that too much emphasis is placed on God&#039;s love, and not enough on His justice. The result is that would-be Christians have little or no understanding of their need for repentance, the consequences of rejecting the gospel, or accepting it but falling away afterwards.

I don&#039;t know if you&#039;re familiar with the techniques Comfort advocates, but if you are, what do you think of them?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any way of evangelising and discipling people so that they&#8217;re less likely to fall away down the track?</p>
<p>Some critics of modern evangelism techniques, such as evangelist Ray Comfort, assert that too much emphasis is placed on God&#8217;s love, and not enough on His justice. The result is that would-be Christians have little or no understanding of their need for repentance, the consequences of rejecting the gospel, or accepting it but falling away afterwards.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re familiar with the techniques Comfort advocates, but if you are, what do you think of them?</p>
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		<title>By: Is there a crisis in the area of discipleship?</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/comment-page-1/#comment-66202</link>
		<dc:creator>Is there a crisis in the area of discipleship?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 15:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/#comment-66202</guid>
		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-ref-pre%--&gt;[...] discipleship strategy (which is admittedly lacking) but in our overall evangelism strategy. From an article I recently wrote for Christianity Today International:QuoteIn &quot;Closing the Evangelistic Back Door,&quot; Win [...]&lt;!--%kramer-ref-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://dev.wp-plugins.org/wiki/Kramer" ><img src="http://tatumweb.com/blog/wp-content/plugins/kramer.php?kramer=gif-icon" class="technorati-balloon" alt="Kramer auto Pingback" style="border:0;" /></a>[...] discipleship strategy (which is admittedly lacking) but in our overall evangelism strategy. From an article I recently wrote for Christianity Today International:QuoteIn &quot;Closing the Evangelistic Back Door,&quot; Win [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/comment-page-1/#comment-64524</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2007 10:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/#comment-64524</guid>
		<description>Mark, I agree with you: we need revival&#160;&#8212; that&#039;s a key ingredient to natural church growth, as we see it especially in the Book of Acts.

I think the guys I cite in the article above have nailed only one part of the problem, as you intuit. I do think we largely have hare-brained methods of evangelism, to that extent I agree with them, and I agree with others that just getting someone to say the sinners&#039; prayer doesn&#039;t necessarily lead to a conversion experience. After all, James tells us the devils&#039; believe, and tremble. The evidence of salvation is obedience.

And so, while I didn&#039;t articulate this in my article, I think a couple necessary ingredients largely missing in our churches is:

&lt;b&gt;a)&lt;/b&gt; a focus and an expectation on spiritual transformation as a result of the conversion experience and

&lt;b&gt;b)&lt;/b&gt; a commitment to discipleship and mentoring subsequent to a decision to become a disciple of Christ.

Like you, I think we need revival, too, but we need the kind of revival that is supported by a commitment to life-change and a true apprenticeship to Jesus. Too many revivals have slunk off into the night leaving very little residue behind because the church experiencing the revival had no idea what to do afterward.

Revival and all the new believers it brings must be followed up by discipleship and obedience. Without that, the gains from a revival fall away, just as the gains from a successful street evangelism campaign disappear without successful integration into the church body.

Thanks for commenting and stopping by, I appreciate it!

Rich
&lt;a href=&quot;http://tatumweb.com/blog/&quot; rel=&quot;tag&quot;&gt;BlogRodent&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I agree with you: we need revival&nbsp;&mdash; that&#8217;s a key ingredient to natural church growth, as we see it especially in the Book of Acts.</p>
<p>I think the guys I cite in the article above have nailed only one part of the problem, as you intuit. I do think we largely have hare-brained methods of evangelism, to that extent I agree with them, and I agree with others that just getting someone to say the sinners&#8217; prayer doesn&#8217;t necessarily lead to a conversion experience. After all, James tells us the devils&#8217; believe, and tremble. The evidence of salvation is obedience.</p>
<p>And so, while I didn&#8217;t articulate this in my article, I think a couple necessary ingredients largely missing in our churches is:</p>
<p><b>a)</b> a focus and an expectation on spiritual transformation as a result of the conversion experience and</p>
<p><b>b)</b> a commitment to discipleship and mentoring subsequent to a decision to become a disciple of Christ.</p>
<p>Like you, I think we need revival, too, but we need the kind of revival that is supported by a commitment to life-change and a true apprenticeship to Jesus. Too many revivals have slunk off into the night leaving very little residue behind because the church experiencing the revival had no idea what to do afterward.</p>
<p>Revival and all the new believers it brings must be followed up by discipleship and obedience. Without that, the gains from a revival fall away, just as the gains from a successful street evangelism campaign disappear without successful integration into the church body.</p>
<p>Thanks for commenting and stopping by, I appreciate it!</p>
<p>Rich<br />
<a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/" rel="tag">BlogRodent</a></p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/comment-page-1/#comment-64519</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2007 08:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/2007/04/11/on-apostacy/#comment-64519</guid>
		<description>More food for thought, eh Rich. :)

I&#039;m disturbed enough about this topic now to go and see if I can put something in my blog about it...  for while I agree somewhat with the fact that there is a serious issue here, I don&#039;t think that it is being properly diagnosed. Yes, those that are manipulated will walk.. Yes those that feel left out of everything will consider walking. but I don&#039;t think the problem is the program, but the fuel it&#039;s running on.

We need revival. Serious revival.

Mark</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More food for thought, eh Rich. :)</p>
<p>I&#8217;m disturbed enough about this topic now to go and see if I can put something in my blog about it&#8230;  for while I agree somewhat with the fact that there is a serious issue here, I don&#8217;t think that it is being properly diagnosed. Yes, those that are manipulated will walk.. Yes those that feel left out of everything will consider walking. but I don&#8217;t think the problem is the program, but the fuel it&#8217;s running on.</p>
<p>We need revival. Serious revival.</p>
<p>Mark</p>
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