I like your addition, and your observation that discipleship and mentoring take time (and resources!) is salient. This is probably the single greatest failing in Western church today and largely explains why many denominations (my own Fellowship included) are bleeding new converts like a stuck sow. We fail to mentor/disciple.

We too often seem to not have patience for it.

Perhaps this is one lesson such Internet-based ministries can teach the brick-and-mortar ministries. Without discipleship, it’s possible there is no conversion. At least, there is no evidence of conversion.

Regards,

If it’s not too late to add some thoughts (as coordinator of Internet Evangelism Day) – the only web-mediated testimonies we have on the site demonstrate that once someone has come into contact with an outreach website (via whatever means), their conversion has happened through often quite prolonged mentoring relationship with a real Christian (often online).

The big ministries which have a well-organised mentoring system in place, with appropriate linkup with local fellowships, are doing this well. A surprisingly large number of church memberships and baptisms have resulted from the very well organised http://www.connaitredieu.com in France, for example.

I understand your point and your desire, and I applaud it and wish more of us had the same passion.

I do think that it’s important to remember what Luke recorded about this same power for service and unity. In Acts one, Jesus commanded his disciples:

Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about.

And in Acts 2 we see:

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. … All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.

The King James tells us, “they were all with one accord in one place.”

Through the years, many have interpreted these passages to mean that the disciples were of one mind and purpose before the Spirit came down. And there are so many injunctions to unity throughout the New Testament that even though it seems we must wait forever for unity, as you note, it may be just as important a factor for Spirit-empowered service as the Spirit-empowering itself.

Regards,

Rich
BlogRodent

I don’t have time to post a longish answer so I will merely touch upon one point here prior to running off.

Frank,

The power I am searching for is indeed a supernatural fitting for service.

If I was to await ‘unity’ I’d be much older and greyer before I gave up and still didn’t see it. :)

No offense meant, and we may just be having a communications mismatch here.

I will say that what I have seen as the most important aspect is God’s power upon us as we reach out to those who do not yet follow Him.

perhaps more later.. gotta shift the little one to History now. :)

mark

Instead, I tend to think that the unbeliever should be immersed into the Christian community that is lived out at backyard barbecues in their neighborhoods, at skating parties for kids’ birthdays, during neighborhood walks that small groups take, etc. Those are the types of arenas in which Christian community can really be lived out anyway — it’s hard to live out Christian community when I’m staring at the back of someone’s head.

Frank

I think where my hang-up is in the statement that the unbeliever should be “immersed into” the Christian community. I think I tend to see it as the Christian community “penetrating” the secular communities. Thus: Jesus sending the seventy, Paul going on his missionary journeys, the disciples going to Temple, Jesus entering into houses to dine with pagans. Indeed, one of the cowardly charges levied against Jesus was that he associated with known sinners — not that he merely allowed them to associate with him.

The more I think about it the more I think that it’s more than simply creating a “magnetic” community that attracts unbelievers, or simply hoping that our own magnetic personalities attract pagans, we must also focus on intentionally forging the relationships that expose others to Jesus-within-us. It’s not about waiting for them to come around and get immersed, its’ we who must flood them. Not in an antagonistic, confrontational sense, but in a pervasive, catalytic, change-agent sort of way.

We must associate “going” with “being” disciples as we “make” disciples.

Rich
BlogRodent

As I hinted at in my original article and my comment at the Gospelcon blog, I’ve come to my conclusion through careful consideration of John 17:21-23. In those verses, Jesus says that if His disciples are one and perfected in unity, then the world will know:

1) that the Father loves them; and,

2) that the Father sent Jesus (which I take to imply a knowledge of what Jesus’ mission was).

I’ve come to my conclusion about the necessity of immersion into Christian community prior to conversion by working backwards through Jesus’ statements in those verses.

First, I ask myself if it’s possible for someone who does not know that the Father loves them and that the Father sent Jesus to be converted. I say No. Without that very rudimentary understanding of the gospel message, how could anyone be saved. How could someone who didn’t understand the Father’s love and Jesus’ mission on earth begin to understand their need for salvation?

Then my next question is this: if it’s necessary for someone to understand the Father’s love and Jesus’ mission on earth, how do they gain that understanding? Through seeing that Jesus’ disciples are one and perfected in unity.

Finally, how does someone see that Jesus’ disciples are one and perfected in unity? My answer to this is not an absolute rule. It’s certainly possible for someone to come to Christ without a lot of exposure to Christian community (although I think that many who have come to Christ might not realize that they had more exposure to Christian community than is obvious to them now). I have a friend who is fond of saying, “I’m not putting God in a box — God puts me in a box.” In other words, the Scriptures sometimes give us normative patterns which we should follow. Are there exceptions to those patterns? Of course. But in the absence of clear direction to the contrary, we should be mindful of the normative patterns revealed in the Scriptures. I believe that this is one of those times.

Can God save a person who is not first immersed into Christian community? Of course. Kathi and Mark seem to be examples of this. What should we do about people living in creative access nations — should we not reach out to them with digital means? Of course not. We should use every means available to us including instant messaging, email, discussion forums, websites, etc. (although I would say we should be praying that those people will come into contact with hidden believers). Mark, I agree with your concept of online interactions being a safety-net for people who fall through the cracks.

But putting the exceptions aside, what is the normative pattern which the Scriptures reveal to us? I believe that the normative pattern is for a person to be exposed to (and yes, even immersed into) Christian community prior to their conversion. That’s how someone sees that Jesus’ disciples are one and perfected in unity which is the normative prerequisite for an unbeliever to know the Father loves them and that the Father sent Jesus.

There are other passages of Scripture which at least suggest the same principle:

Luke 10:1-11
Jesus sends out the seventy two by two

He tells them to find a man of peace – someone who is open to the Word of the Kingdom – and to stay in that man’s house. Jesus sends out a community (two by two) and that community between two disciples eventually expands to include the household of the man of peace.

When the disciples leave that city, they leave a believing community behind and that community becomes the witness to Christ’s love and purpose in that city.

Acts 2:42-47
The disciples were continually devoting themselves (they were holding fast to, they were persevering in), among other things, fellowship and the breaking of bread. A quick note about the breaking of bread. In Middle Eastern thought, eating a meal with someone signifies that I accept that person completely and without reservation. To eat a meal with someone is to say to them that I want an intimate friendship with them, that they are my brother or sister (part of my family), that I want community with them. The disciples had all things in common and continued with one mind. A wonderful description of Christian community. The result? “And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.” Part of the process by which the Lord adds disciples is by planting the community of Christ in their midst for all to see.

The Apostolic Pattern in Acts
The pattern in Acts is for the apostles to take traveling companions with them. Look at how many times Luke uses the terms “we,” “they,” “companions,” etc. The apostles, in effect, brought community with them on their missionary journeys. This idea is also supported by Paul’s sections of greetings at the end of some of his epistles (where he passes on the greetings of his companions). The apostles brought Christian community with them as they preached the gospel and planted churches. It was the backdrop for all they proclaimed.

1 Thessalonians 1-2
The power of the gospel to change lives finds its foundation in the way the apostolic band lived their lives among the Thessalonians. The depth of community which was demonstrated by the apostolic band (among themselves and among the larger community of Thessalonian believers) gave a certain amount of confirmation to the message that was preached.

Mark, the power that you are seeking is not just a supernatural endowment. It comes at least partially through the way we live our lives among the brethren. In 1 Thessalonians 1:5, Paul says, “&hellipour gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction;”

I’m a Pentecostal through and through. I believe in the gifts. I believe in the validity of and desperate need for miracles in our day. And so if I stopped reading there, I would be convinced that Paul was talking about the miraculous. But he goes on to say, “just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.”

The power of the gospel is found not only in miracles and the gifts but also in the way that Christ’s servants live their lives among the Thessalonians. This is how the gospel came to them in power — as the apostolic band lived out the principles of the Christian life and Christian community in full view of the Thessalonians — among them.

The rest of 1 Thessalonians 1-2 bolsters this point. Chapter 2, verses 7-8 are especially poignant: “But we proved to be gentle among you, as a nursing mother tenderly cares for her own children. Having thus a fond affection for you, we were well-pleased to impart to you not only the gospel of God but also our own lives, because you had become very dear to us.”

1 John 4:7-16
In the midst of a discussion of Christian community (”Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God ….”), John says that no one has beheld God at any time (verse 12). But then he seems to change course — “if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.” That echoes John 17:21-23  — he’s talking about the same thing — that Jesus’ disciples should be one and perfected in unity.

What’s the result of that unity? Although he said in verse 12 that no one has beheld God at any time, as a result of the unity of the disciples, he can say that “we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.” That’s the mission of Jesus that John 17:21-23 talks about.

In verse 16, John says, “And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.” That’s the love of the Father that John 17:21-23 talks about.

How does the world “know” these things? When they see us loving one another and God’s love being perfected in us.

Sorry for the length of this, but I felt like I should take the time to point out that my thinking is not just based on one passage, but on several threads which seem to wind themselves through the Scriptures.

I’m glad this thread is getting some attention because I think it’s a very important question which needs to be answered.

Frank

I’m not completely sold on Frank’s proposal, but I’m also open to what he has to say about the value of exposure to Christ-in-us through community that makes Evangelism really work.

Where I think my article butresses Frank’s point is that the evangelism efforts that caused the greatest fallout among the new converts were those strategies that were not inherently relational. The strategy that was the most relational worked best, and that strategy largely coincides with Frank’s suggestion: Build relationships with the seeker/nonbeliever first. As Jerry Cook said:

[Unbelievers] are drawn to a relationship. That’s why “sinners” were drawn to Jesus. He never attacked them. He simply said, “You can be forgiven.” …

And that’s kind of Frank’s point.

Rich.
BlogRodent

Now I have to say that I disagree with some of the thoughts that kicked off Rich’s blog entry: that someone needed to be immersed in a christian community prior to conversion. That is not what the Bible says. The Bible says we are to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. » [more]