Comments on: Is the Assemblies of God a cult? Or, Wikipedia, authority, and the cult of truthiness. http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/ Pentecostal Rumination and Review Tue, 17 Aug 2010 23:10:59 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.5 hourly 1 By: The Fair and Balanced http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-109567 The Fair and Balanced Tue, 12 May 2009 03:20:02 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-109567 Hmm the woman in the pulpit thing? Having come to God via the Assemblies of God I have to admit that many women had their hands in my discipleship as a youngster. But many women including my own mother tore her own family and marriage up in order to point us all to Christ. And me and my 5 older brothers are solid Chistians today because of it however the methods used were obstinance confrontational rebellion against my father's authority which is not the pattern advised by Paul in 1st Peter 3:1-6 to convert a husband to the faith. So as it turns out the main scripture to used to put women into the pulpit or leadership over men in the church is Galations 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (KJV). Most take this verse as our relationship to each other as individuals while the context makes it clear that it refers to our relationship to Christ. Our relationship to each other has already been spelled out in detail in other scriptures designating children to be under parents, wives under husbands, churches under male pastors, and all married people into heterosexual marriages with people of the oposite gender. To take this passage in Galations as it has been taken at first glance that it refers to our relationship to each other would be to destroy the intent of piles of other scriptures which cannot be allowed. If women can use it to be pastor then a male can use it to marry and have sexual activities with another male all with the blessings of God. The lawsuits to divorce in about 75% of all marriages in the US are initiated by women. How can women continually see women preachers in the pulpit laying the law down to audiences with men sitting in them, and later be able to resist the temptation to replicate the sitation at home by turning the tables on their own husband by calling the shots and trying to teach him how to act though it is against the scriptures to do so? I find that most people follow the examples they see played out in front of them rather than by following the written word. Just because a woman is good at a job does not mean she is allowed to do it, just the same as that fact that I might be able to do a good job of breaking all car windows on my street in 10 minutes does not mean I should be allowed to. The spiritual exploits and miracles of many will be rejected by Jesus because of the additional inquity (lawless) in their lives. Thus they will be denied entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven - Matthew 7:22-23. So we see that though they did many good things together with God, they will still be outcasts because of a failure to be legalistic enough. Though I do agree in part with the main intent of Dr. Shepherd, I have to dissent in that he accused concering Acts 2:16 "Failing to inform people today that this was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies only to the children of Israel and Jews". This smacks of typical baptist doctrine which declares that all miracles and apostles passed away after the death of the last apostles which is a ludacrist idea. It was the last days then and it still is the last days. It will be the last days until the Day of the Lord appears. Dr. Shepherd should realize that verse verse 17 applies it to all flesh which is beyond Israel and the Jews. Further more the middle wall of partition was removed placing all gentiles who accept the Lord into the commonwealth of Israel according to Ephesians Chapter 2. Futhermore the Northern House is Israel comprising of about 10 lost tribes are foretold to someday be regathered and brougt back to the Land of Israel and anyone of us reading this today could be part of that number. Futhermore anyone could always join Israel just as Caleb joined himself to the tribe of Judah when they left Egypt with Moses, and also as Rahab the harlot joined the nation and religion. All gentiles are grafted in to Israel and that is the only way we can get to heaven. There is no us and them, the church and israel. Anyone who is not Israel will never be saved, you either get grafted into the tree of Israel or you perish. According to Jeremiah 31:31-33 the only people God ever made a convenant with durring or since the days of Moses was the house of Israel and Judah and to get in on that deal you have to join Israel by submitting to the authority of Jesus who himself is a Jew and an extention of the kingdom of Israel under the lineage of David and the Messiah of the Kingdom of God. Replacement theology that the church has replaced Israel is a big no no. There is only one body, one spirit, one hope of our calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all according to Ephesians Chapter 4. Because the word "Cult" is not a word from the bible, I refrain from using it to define those who quote the bible or claim to live by it's precepts. It was no doubt created by the evil one to hurt good people. It is better to refer to the wrong doers as Heretics, false prophets, hirelings or blind leaders of the blind. Hmm the woman in the pulpit thing? Having come to God via the Assemblies of God I have to admit that many women had their hands in my discipleship as a youngster. But many women including my own mother tore her own family and marriage up in order to point us all to Christ. And me and my 5 older brothers are solid Chistians today because of it however the methods used were obstinance confrontational rebellion against my father’s authority which is not the pattern advised by Paul in 1st Peter 3:1-6 to convert a husband to the faith. So as it turns out the main scripture to used to put women into the pulpit or leadership over men in the church is Galations 3:28 “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus” (KJV). Most take this verse as our relationship to each other as individuals while the context makes it clear that it refers to our relationship to Christ. Our relationship to each other has already been spelled out in detail in other scriptures designating children to be under parents, wives under husbands, churches under male pastors, and all married people into heterosexual marriages with people of the oposite gender. To take this passage in Galations as it has been taken at first glance that it refers to our relationship to each other would be to destroy the intent of piles of other scriptures which cannot be allowed. If women can use it to be pastor then a male can use it to marry and have sexual activities with another male all with the blessings of God. The lawsuits to divorce in about 75% of all marriages in the US are initiated by women. How can women continually see women preachers in the pulpit laying the law down to audiences with men sitting in them, and later be able to resist the temptation to replicate the sitation at home by turning the tables on their own husband by calling the shots and trying to teach him how to act though it is against the scriptures to do so? I find that most people follow the examples they see played out in front of them rather than by following the written word. Just because a woman is good at a job does not mean she is allowed to do it, just the same as that fact that I might be able to do a good job of breaking all car windows on my street in 10 minutes does not mean I should be allowed to. The spiritual exploits and miracles of many will be rejected by Jesus because of the additional inquity (lawless) in their lives. Thus they will be denied entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven – Matthew 7:22-23. So we see that though they did many good things together with God, they will still be outcasts because of a failure to be legalistic enough.

Though I do agree in part with the main intent of Dr. Shepherd, I have to dissent in that he accused concering Acts 2:16 “Failing to inform people today that this was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies only to the children of Israel and Jews”. This smacks of typical baptist doctrine which declares that all miracles and apostles passed away after the death of the last apostles which is a ludacrist idea. It was the last days then and it still is the last days. It will be the last days until the Day of the Lord appears. Dr. Shepherd should realize that verse verse 17 applies it to all flesh which is beyond Israel and the Jews. Further more the middle wall of partition was removed placing all gentiles who accept the Lord into the commonwealth of Israel according to Ephesians Chapter 2. Futhermore the Northern House is Israel comprising of about 10 lost tribes are foretold to someday be regathered and brougt back to the Land of Israel and anyone of us reading this today could be part of that number. Futhermore anyone could always join Israel just as Caleb joined himself to the tribe of Judah when they left Egypt with Moses, and also as Rahab the harlot joined the nation and religion. All gentiles are grafted in to Israel and that is the only way we can get to heaven. There is no us and them, the church and israel. Anyone who is not Israel will never be saved, you either get grafted into the tree of Israel or you perish. According to Jeremiah 31:31-33 the only people God ever made a convenant with durring or since the days of Moses was the house of Israel and Judah and to get in on that deal you have to join Israel by submitting to the authority of Jesus who himself is a Jew and an extention of the kingdom of Israel under the lineage of David and the Messiah of the Kingdom of God. Replacement theology that the church has replaced Israel is a big no no. There is only one body, one spirit, one hope of our calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and father of all according to Ephesians Chapter 4. Because the word “Cult” is not a word from the bible, I refrain from using it to define those who quote the bible or claim to live by it’s precepts. It was no doubt created by the evil one to hurt good people. It is better to refer to the wrong doers as Heretics, false prophets, hirelings or blind leaders of the blind.

]]> By: Josh http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-69881 Josh Thu, 06 Dec 2007 12:29:58 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-69881 WikiCult seems to have the right idea -- see <a href="http://www.wikicult.org/" title="WikiCult" / rel="nofollow">wikicult.org</a>. WikiCult seems to have the right idea — see wikicult.org.

]]> By: Rich http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-53361 Rich Sun, 04 Feb 2007 12:58:40 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-53361 Dr. Shepherd, The self-same Bible-believing people who founded the A/G articulated our doctrines nearly 100 years ago, in 1914, including the position that women should be allowed to proclaim the Word of God as ordained ministers. This does not make us a cult, nor does it make us apostate. And I would challenge you to cite sources indicating that the reason the A/G did this was for financial gain. The passages you cite are clear, but your interpretation of them is foggy. I could go on as to why, but this post is not the proper forum for that discussion. For now, I recommend: <blockquote>"<a href="http://www.ag.org/enrichmentjournal/200102/008_exploring.cfm">Exploring Why We Think The Way We Do About Women In Ministry</a>"<br />by Dr. George O. Wood, general secretary of the Assemblies of God.<br /><i>Are Pentecostals tinkering with the words of Scripture by permitting the ordination of women and affording them every role in ministry available to men? As Pentecostals, we better have an answer to this question.</i> <a href="http://www.ag.org/enrichmentjournal/200102/024_jesus_and_women.cfm">Jesus And Women</a><br />By Doug Clark<br /> <em>The words accepting, sensitive, and affirming sum up what Luke and the example of Jesus teach us about the Master's attitude toward women.</em> <a href="http://womeninministry.ag.org/roleofwim/0306_wim_questions.cfm">Dealing with Questions on the Role of Women in Ministry</a><br />By Zenas J. Bicket</blockquote> Regards, Rich <a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/">BlogRodent</a> Dr. Shepherd,

The self-same Bible-believing people who founded the A/G articulated our doctrines nearly 100 years ago, in 1914, including the position that women should be allowed to proclaim the Word of God as ordained ministers.

This does not make us a cult, nor does it make us apostate. And I would challenge you to cite sources indicating that the reason the A/G did this was for financial gain.

The passages you cite are clear, but your interpretation of them is foggy. I could go on as to why, but this post is not the proper forum for that discussion.

For now, I recommend:

“Exploring Why We Think The Way We Do About Women In Ministry“
by Dr. George O. Wood, general secretary of the Assemblies of God.
Are Pentecostals tinkering with the words of Scripture by permitting the ordination of women and affording them every role in ministry available to men? As Pentecostals, we better have an answer to this question.

Jesus And Women
By Doug Clark
The words accepting, sensitive, and affirming sum up what Luke and the example of Jesus teach us about the Master’s attitude toward women.

Dealing with Questions on the Role of Women in Ministry
By Zenas J. Bicket

Regards,

Rich
BlogRodent

]]> By: Dr. Shepherd http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-53224 Dr. Shepherd Sat, 03 Feb 2007 08:16:44 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-53224 The sad thing about the Assemblies of God is how they had been founded by Bible believing people who for two millennia taught, only men can hold the office of Pastor according to Bible Scriptures. Now in more modern times since the onset of women’s liberations, that those same women have targeted the Churches as their next goal. As today these same liberated women living in the elusions of women’s equalities, are only fooling themselves when they take on the name of a woman being a pastor. And for a denomination to cater to this delusional state by acting as a ordaining denomination in ordaining women, to draw more women tethers into their organization. $$$ According to the Biblical author Paul, who was responsible for contributions that comprise being nearly one half of the New Testament, that such heresies of women being ordained as pastors will be cursed? <blockquote>Gal 1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.</blockquote> <blockquote>Gal 1:9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.</blockquote> Assemblies of God feminists who uphold these false teachings claim that the prophet Joel’s prophesy in Acts 2:16-17: <blockquote>Acts 2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: </blockquote> Failing to inform people today that this was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies only to the children of Israel and Jews. Peter proclaimed that those prophesies were then that day fulfilled. It was soon after that day and time that the apostle Paul became a converted Christian, and began his contributions to Bible Scriptures led by the Holy Ghost, and set more sound doctrines into motion. While led of the Holy Ghost Paul wrote also; <blockquote>1 Cor 14:34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.</blockquote> <blockquote>1 Tim 2:11-12: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.</blockquote> <blockquote>1 Tim 3:1-2: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;</blockquote> Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, he has not changed Paul’s writings. <blockquote>Mal 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.</blockquote> Assemblies of God wake up! Repent! For as many women that you have un-scripturally ordained you have done it at the cost of loosing your anointing! We pray you will repent and return back to bible scripture for sound doctrines. Or will we see now what becomes of a cursed denomination that continues to teach doctrines opposite of what Bible Scripture states? And fulfill the prophesied APOSTACY that marks histories end. The sad thing about the Assemblies of God is how they had been founded by Bible believing people who for two millennia taught, only men can hold the office of Pastor according to Bible Scriptures.

Now in more modern times since the onset of women’s liberations, that those same women have targeted the Churches as their next goal.

As today these same liberated women living in the elusions of women’s equalities, are only fooling themselves when they take on the name of a woman being a pastor.

And for a denomination to cater to this delusional state by acting as a ordaining denomination in ordaining women, to draw more women tethers into their organization. $$$

According to the Biblical author Paul, who was responsible for contributions that comprise being nearly one half of the New Testament, that such heresies of women being ordained as pastors will be cursed?

Gal 1:8: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Gal 1:9: As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Assemblies of God feminists who uphold these false teachings claim that the prophet Joel’s prophesy in Acts 2:16-17:

Acts 2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Failing to inform people today that this was a fulfillment of Old Testament prophesies only to the children of Israel and Jews. Peter proclaimed that those prophesies were then that day fulfilled.

It was soon after that day and time that the apostle Paul became a converted Christian, and began his contributions to Bible Scriptures led by the Holy Ghost, and set more sound doctrines into motion.

While led of the Holy Ghost Paul wrote also;

1 Cor 14:34: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

1 Tim 2:11-12: Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

1 Tim 3:1-2: This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, he has not changed Paul’s writings.

Mal 3:6: For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Assemblies of God wake up! Repent! For as many women that you have un-scripturally ordained you have done it at the cost of loosing your anointing! We pray you will repent and return back to bible scripture for sound doctrines.

Or will we see now what becomes of a cursed denomination that continues to teach doctrines opposite of what Bible Scripture states? And fulfill the prophesied APOSTACY that marks histories end.

]]> By: Rich http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-24433 Rich Sun, 13 Aug 2006 23:23:16 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-24433 Fr. Sparks, thanks for your comment! I agree with you, the proper use of semantics places the A/G (or any faith) in the proper relationship to the word which describes it. At least, for those who know the difference. But for most, the word "cult" has one meaning: whacked out people who aren't orthodox Christians. For them, even writing, "The Assemblies of God cult" would still denote all the negative cultic baggage that some Wikipedians evidently want to assign us. Thus, my lengthy diatribe. I probably could've shortened my conclusion to say, "The A/G cult is not a cult, but some elements do exhibit cult-like behavior. Not all cults are truly cultic." But where's the fun in that? :: grin :: By the way, may God bless you, keep you and your men safe, and give you wisdom as you prepare for deployment. Regards, Rich <a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/">BlogRodent</a> Fr. Sparks, thanks for your comment!

I agree with you, the proper use of semantics places the A/G (or any faith) in the proper relationship to the word which describes it. At least, for those who know the difference.

But for most, the word “cult” has one meaning: whacked out people who aren’t orthodox Christians. For them, even writing, “The Assemblies of God cult” would still denote all the negative cultic baggage that some Wikipedians evidently want to assign us. Thus, my lengthy diatribe.

I probably could’ve shortened my conclusion to say, “The A/G cult is not a cult, but some elements do exhibit cult-like behavior. Not all cults are truly cultic.” But where’s the fun in that? :: grin ::

By the way, may God bless you, keep you and your men safe, and give you wisdom as you prepare for deployment.

Regards,

Rich
BlogRodent

]]> By: Fr. Daniel http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-24315 Fr. Daniel Sun, 13 Aug 2006 15:44:54 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-24315 Rich, I think that applying the "secular definition" of "cult" to the AG would better result in writing of "the AG cult" rather than describing the AG as "a cult". The article ("a" vs. "the") makes a difference. For example, in Old Testament study, we often make reference to the Temple cult, but we would not describe Temple worship as being a cult. The indefinite article causes us to switch from the "secular definition" to the "universal definition". Rich, I think that applying the “secular definition” of “cult” to the AG would better result in writing of “the AG cult” rather than describing the AG as “a cult”. The article (”a” vs. “the”) makes a difference. For example, in Old Testament study, we often make reference to the Temple cult, but we would not describe Temple worship as being a cult. The indefinite article causes us to switch from the “secular definition” to the “universal definition”.

]]> By: Rich http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-1213 Rich Sat, 18 Mar 2006 10:11:14 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-1213 Here's an interesting website that watches Wikipedia, worth the notice: <a href="http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/wikiwoo.htm">WikiWatch</a> "I really don't go out my way to find bad Wikipedia articles, but sometimes that's all that Google offers me." Rich <a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/">BlogRodent</a> Here’s an interesting website that watches Wikipedia, worth the notice:

WikiWatch

“I really don’t go out my way to find bad Wikipedia articles, but sometimes that’s all that Google offers me.”

Rich
BlogRodent

]]> By: WikiWatch http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-1146 WikiWatch Sat, 11 Mar 2006 14:30:02 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-1146 <strong>3 Mar. 2006: Good article...</strong> Rich Tatum, January 30th 2006 "Is the Assemblies of God a cult? Or, Wikipedia, authority, and the cult of truthiness."... 3 Mar. 2006: Good article…

Rich Tatum, January 30th 2006 “Is the Assemblies of God a cult? Or, Wikipedia, authority, and the cult of truthiness.”…

]]> By: Rich http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-899 Rich Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:07:20 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-899 Moonbones, you're welcome! I'm not sure if you can post comments from that page, though, so I'll have to see if I can fix that. Shane, no offense taken. I was attempting to be wry and witty. I wasn't perturbed in the least. I was amused and pleased my post inspired such a thoughtful comment. Regards, Rich. <a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/">BlogRodent</a> Moonbones, you’re welcome! I’m not sure if you can post comments from that page, though, so I’ll have to see if I can fix that.

Shane, no offense taken. I was attempting to be wry and witty. I wasn’t perturbed in the least. I was amused and pleased my post inspired such a thoughtful comment.

Regards,

Rich.
BlogRodent

]]> By: Oengus Moonbones http://tatumweb.com/blog/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/comment-page-1/#comment-898 Oengus Moonbones Mon, 06 Feb 2006 01:04:43 +0000 http://tatumweb.com/blog/index.php/2006/01/30/is-the-assemblies-of-god-a-cult/#comment-898 Thanks, Rich, for the alternate link to your blog. It does load up more quickly. Thanks, Rich, for the alternate link to your blog. It does load up more quickly.

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