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	<title>Comments on: Wife and Husband: sacrificial leadership meets love-inspired submission</title>
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	<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2005/11/21/wife-and-husband/</link>
	<description>Pentecostal Rumination and Review</description>
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		<title>By: International Student Ministry at Montreal Discussions (Facebook)</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2005/11/21/wife-and-husband/comment-page-1/#comment-58801</link>
		<dc:creator>International Student Ministry at Montreal Discussions (Facebook)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2007 12:17:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/?p=136#comment-58801</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Topic: what are you reading?...&lt;/strong&gt;

&#171;&#160;&#8230;on the web: those of you interested in the roles of husbands and wives in a christian marriage might want to take a look at &#039;&lt;a href=&quot;http://tatumweb.com/blog/2
005/11/21/wife-and-husband
/&quot;&gt;Wife and Husband&lt;/a&gt;&#039;. Unfortunately, the original article cited is no longer available on the web, but this blog reflection on it is quite provocative.&#160;&#187; [&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2248422144&amp;topic=2409&quot; rel=&quot;tag&quot;&gt;more&lt;/a&gt;]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Topic: what are you reading?&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>&laquo;&nbsp;&hellip;on the web: those of you interested in the roles of husbands and wives in a christian marriage might want to take a look at &#8216;<a href="http://tatumweb.com/blog/2<br />
005/11/21/wife-and-husband<br />
/">Wife and Husband</a>&#8216;. Unfortunately, the original article cited is no longer available on the web, but this blog reflection on it is quite provocative.&nbsp;&raquo; [<a href="http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=2248422144&#38;topic=2409" rel="tag" class="extlink">more</a>]</p>
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		<title>By: Rich</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2005/11/21/wife-and-husband/comment-page-1/#comment-396</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 08:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/?p=136#comment-396</guid>
		<description>We dialoged a bit about this in IM, Curt, but I wanted to respond a bit here, too, because I think this is a worthwhile dialog. Thanks for joining in!

I agree with your model: that there is a positive dynamic in the tension between influence and authority. I&#039;ve heard this since I was in high school, and I think it&#039;s a positive view of things--one I strive for with my family.

In our IM I wondered out loud whether we have anachronistically read back into the metaphor for &quot;head&quot; our contemporary understanding of the brain as the seat of understanding and decision-making. I wondered whether 2,000 years ago the current wisdom might have head that the &quot;heart&quot; or the &quot;bowels&quot; as the chief location of the intellect and will. So, I went on a quick search of the NT, especially Paul&#039;s writing, where &lt;i&gt;cephale&lt;/i&gt; (&quot;head&quot;) is used in this contemporary sense of leadership and authority.

Well, no surprise. I was wrong, here are a few passages demonstrating that headship is authority:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;b&gt;Ephesians 1:22&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Colossians 1:18&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Colossians 2:10&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;...and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority&quot;

&lt;b&gt;Colossians 2:19&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;...and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.&quot;

&lt;b&gt;1 Corinthians 11:3&lt;/b&gt;

&quot;But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

And so, I think this necessarily deflates Sarah&#039;s argument:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Nowhere in Scripture is a husband told to lead his wife. As I noted earlier, this idea is very popular, but it doesn&#039;t derive directly from God&#039;s Word. Complementarians are the ones who keep saying that husbands should lead their wives. The apostle Paul never says that once in all his letters. Jesus doesn&#039;t say it either. Neither does Peter or John. No one in the New Testament ever says it.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Based on my brief survey, Sarah seems to make the mistake of isolating a single metaphorical usage of a term from its cultural and literary context and too narrowly restricting to its role in the metaphor. However, it&#039;s clear that this concept of headship, resting in a metaphor as it does, carries with it clear ideas of authority &lt;i&gt;and identity&lt;/i&gt; precisely because of its use in a metaphor. Just because a term has applicability as a metaphorical device does not mean that it is empty of the associated meanings it has acqured precisely because of this aptness.

For example, suppose I write: &quot;Like a tree&#039;s roots must tap into deep wells of water for nourishment and strenth, we must also be rooted in meditation on the Word.&quot; It would be inappropriate for someone to then say that I am only speaking metaphorically of &quot;roots&quot; here, that I do not mean that there is in any sense a &quot;foundational,&quot; or &quot;unmoving,&quot; aspect to my usage of &quot;root.&quot; That &quot;rootedness&quot; is not in view. No, it&#039;s precisely because of the aptness of the &quot;root&quot; as metaphor that it has acquired these fuller meanings, and my usage of the metaphor is made in light of all that. To restrict the meaning to the metaphor, alone, when there is a greater richness, ignores the fuller usage of the terms at hand.

So, I must conclude, Sarah does and admirable job exegeting this passage on its own terms, but does poorly in explaining headship in light of other NT, and especially Pauline, usage.

Thanks for forcing me to examine this more closely, Curt.

Rich.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We dialoged a bit about this in IM, Curt, but I wanted to respond a bit here, too, because I think this is a worthwhile dialog. Thanks for joining in!</p>
<p>I agree with your model: that there is a positive dynamic in the tension between influence and authority. I&#8217;ve heard this since I was in high school, and I think it&#8217;s a positive view of things&#8211;one I strive for with my family.</p>
<p>In our IM I wondered out loud whether we have anachronistically read back into the metaphor for &#8220;head&#8221; our contemporary understanding of the brain as the seat of understanding and decision-making. I wondered whether 2,000 years ago the current wisdom might have head that the &#8220;heart&#8221; or the &#8220;bowels&#8221; as the chief location of the intellect and will. So, I went on a quick search of the NT, especially Paul&#8217;s writing, where <i>cephale</i> (&#8221;head&#8221;) is used in this contemporary sense of leadership and authority.</p>
<p>Well, no surprise. I was wrong, here are a few passages demonstrating that headship is authority:</p>
<blockquote><p><b>Ephesians 1:22</b></p>
<p>&#8220;And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Colossians 1:18</b></p>
<p>&#8220;He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Colossians 2:10</b></p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority&#8221;</p>
<p><b>Colossians 2:19</b></p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.&#8221;</p>
<p><b>1 Corinthians 11:3</b></p>
<p>&#8220;But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>And so, I think this necessarily deflates Sarah&#8217;s argument:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Nowhere in Scripture is a husband told to lead his wife. As I noted earlier, this idea is very popular, but it doesn&#8217;t derive directly from God&#8217;s Word. Complementarians are the ones who keep saying that husbands should lead their wives. The apostle Paul never says that once in all his letters. Jesus doesn&#8217;t say it either. Neither does Peter or John. No one in the New Testament ever says it.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Based on my brief survey, Sarah seems to make the mistake of isolating a single metaphorical usage of a term from its cultural and literary context and too narrowly restricting to its role in the metaphor. However, it&#8217;s clear that this concept of headship, resting in a metaphor as it does, carries with it clear ideas of authority <i>and identity</i> precisely because of its use in a metaphor. Just because a term has applicability as a metaphorical device does not mean that it is empty of the associated meanings it has acqured precisely because of this aptness.</p>
<p>For example, suppose I write: &#8220;Like a tree&#8217;s roots must tap into deep wells of water for nourishment and strenth, we must also be rooted in meditation on the Word.&#8221; It would be inappropriate for someone to then say that I am only speaking metaphorically of &#8220;roots&#8221; here, that I do not mean that there is in any sense a &#8220;foundational,&#8221; or &#8220;unmoving,&#8221; aspect to my usage of &#8220;root.&#8221; That &#8220;rootedness&#8221; is not in view. No, it&#8217;s precisely because of the aptness of the &#8220;root&#8221; as metaphor that it has acquired these fuller meanings, and my usage of the metaphor is made in light of all that. To restrict the meaning to the metaphor, alone, when there is a greater richness, ignores the fuller usage of the terms at hand.</p>
<p>So, I must conclude, Sarah does and admirable job exegeting this passage on its own terms, but does poorly in explaining headship in light of other NT, and especially Pauline, usage.</p>
<p>Thanks for forcing me to examine this more closely, Curt.</p>
<p>Rich.</p>
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		<title>By: Curt Dalaba</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2005/11/21/wife-and-husband/comment-page-1/#comment-381</link>
		<dc:creator>Curt Dalaba</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2005 18:52:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/?p=136#comment-381</guid>
		<description>&quot;For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.&quot;

So if headship of the wife is not authority and is not leadership, why this comparison to the headship of Christ as our model? Why should the husband imitate Christ only in sacrifice and not in leadership? Or is she weakening the model? Is she saying that Christ is not our authority and not our leader?

I much prefer the marital model of power sharing. The man is given the power of authority and the woman is given the power of influence. One does not function well without the other.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.&#8221;</p>
<p>So if headship of the wife is not authority and is not leadership, why this comparison to the headship of Christ as our model? Why should the husband imitate Christ only in sacrifice and not in leadership? Or is she weakening the model? Is she saying that Christ is not our authority and not our leader?</p>
<p>I much prefer the marital model of power sharing. The man is given the power of authority and the woman is given the power of influence. One does not function well without the other.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2005/11/21/wife-and-husband/comment-page-1/#comment-380</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2005 17:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://tatumweb.com/blog/?p=136#comment-380</guid>
		<description>This is always an interesting discussion. The thing I like about it is that it drives us into the Scriptures to solidify our positions. Brother Rich, I&#039;ve been meaning to come over here and dialogue with you some but my time constraints have been enormous. Hopefully I will be able to participate more in discussion in the future. You have a nice blog here.

God bless and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!
â€  Henry</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is always an interesting discussion. The thing I like about it is that it drives us into the Scriptures to solidify our positions. Brother Rich, I&#8217;ve been meaning to come over here and dialogue with you some but my time constraints have been enormous. Hopefully I will be able to participate more in discussion in the future. You have a nice blog here.</p>
<p>God bless and Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours!<br />
â€  Henry</p>
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		<title>By: Rich - MySpace Blog</title>
		<link>http://tatumweb.com/blog/2005/11/21/wife-and-husband/comment-page-1/#comment-23727</link>
		<dc:creator>Rich - MySpace Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;!--%kramer-pre%--&gt;Justin Berry: From &quot;camwhore&quot; to water-baptised witness for the State Update on Golden Murder When worship goes awry? The Assemblies of God&#039;s corporate roadmap for transformation Charismatic HeresyWife and Husband: sacrificial leadership meets love-inspired submission Youth pastor slays wife, confesses. Why, oh why? Examining Assemblies of God statistics on growth Assemblies of God newsfeeds Is the Church broken? Is the Assemblies of God a cult? [IMG Tom Cruise: Jump the Couch]&lt;!--%kramer-post%--&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.technorati.com/cosmos/search.html?url="class="technorati-balloon"  ><img src="http://static.technorati.com/images/bubble_h17.gif" class="technorati-balloon" alt="links from Technorati" style="border:0;" /></a>Justin Berry: From &#8220;camwhore&#8221; to water-baptised witness for the State Update on Golden Murder When worship goes awry? The Assemblies of God&#8217;s corporate roadmap for transformation Charismatic HeresyWife and Husband: sacrificial leadership meets love-inspired submission Youth pastor slays wife, confesses. Why, oh why? Examining Assemblies of God statistics on growth Assemblies of God newsfeeds Is the Church broken? Is the Assemblies of God a cult? [IMG Tom Cruise: Jump the Couch]</p>
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